February 28, 2006
The Washington Post is reporting 1,300 Iraqis have died in violence
since Wednesday’s bombing of the Askariya shrine in Samara. In his
first interview since returning from Iraq, John Pace, the human rights
chief for the the United Nations Assistance Mission in Iraq, reacts to
the mass killings on the ground. Pace says he believes the U.S. has
violated the Geneva Conventions, is fueling the violence through its
raids on Iraqi homes and is holding thousands of detainees that are for
the most part innocent of any crimes. [includes rush transcript]
We turn now to the War in Iraq. In the latest news at least 31
people have been killed and 75 wounded in three bomb blasts in Baghdad.
The attacks come a day after the lifting of a daytime curfew imposed to
curb widespread violence over the past few days.
The Washington Post is reporting
1,300 Iraqis have died over the past week making this one of the
bloodiest periods since the U.S. invaded the country nearly three years
ago. The mass killings began on Wednesday after a bomb destroyed the
gold dome of the Askariya shrine in Samarra - one of the holiest sites
to Shiite Muslims.
While the bloodshed appears to have at least
temporarily subsided, the outbreak of violence last week has raised new
concerns about where Iraq is headed. Most of those killed in the past
week did not die in roadside bombings or suicide attacks but at the
hands of militias and death squads including some units working out of
the Ministry of the Interior.
The Washington Post published
this dispatch out of Baghdad: "Hundreds of unclaimed dead lay at the
morgue at midday Monday -- blood-caked men who had been shot, knifed,
garroted or apparently suffocated by the plastic bags still over their
heads. Many of the bodies were sprawled with their hands still bound."
Meanwhile the Independent of London is reporting that hundreds of
Iraqis are being tortured to death or summarily executed every month in
Baghdad by death squads working out of the Ministry of the Interior.
Former U.N. Human Rights Chief, Iraq. Up until earlier this month he
was the human rights chief for the United Nations Assistance Mission in
Iraq. He has worked at the United Nations since 1966 and is the former
Secretary to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. He joins us
on the phone from his home in Sydney Australia.
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AMY GOODMAN: It is his first broadcast interview since he left Iraq. We welcome you to Democracy Now!
JOHN PACE: Thank you very much Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: It is good to have you with us. First, your reaction to what has taken place in these last few days in Iraq.
JOHN PACE: Well, I'm not surprised at all, as a matter of
fact, because we have been trying to explain to the world at large that
there has been a generalized deterioration in the situation of
protection of people in Iraq. There is a breakdown of law and order
which is characterized by, technically by the nonfunctioning of the
police, of the judiciary, and of the penitentiary institutions. Not to
mention the military intervention and the various other factors that
provoke a breakdown in protection in Baghdad and most of the country.
So I think it is a problem related to the relay of accurate information
on the -- how serious the situation is in regard to the person in the
street in Iraq. The ordinary Iraqi. Who has absolutely no protection
whatsoever from the state or from the authorities.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the role of militias in Iraq?
JOHN PACE: Well, you know, they first started as a kind
of militia, sort of organized armed groups, which were the military
wing of various factions. And they have -- they had a considerable role
to play in the vacuum that was created by the invasion. With the
procedure for the transition of re-integration of the country to more
representative forms of government, a number of these militias who were
armed wings of political entities found themselves in government. And,
therefore, they -- many of them now, are actually acting as official
police agents as a part of the Ministry of Interior.
Regrettably, they have not -- they have not assumed technical
responsibility on behalf of the state. They have continued to act on
behalf of the factions, as it were. And so many or a large number of
the – nonofficial armed groups have now become official police persons.
With the results that the good policemen—the good technical police
people the residue of those that remained after the rest have been
fired -- after the invasion are unable to do the job properly. There's
only one or two brigades of them. The others are all made up of
militias in police uniform. And regrettably the minister of interior,
at least up to now, was himself head of one of the main militias. And
regrettably he has not led the police force to, at least under his
command, in order to assume a more technical police protection. So you
have these militias now with police gear and under police insignia
basically carrying out an agenda which really is not in the interest of
the country as a whole. They have roadblocks in Baghdad and other
areas, they would kidnap in other people. They have been very closely
linked with numerous mass executions, at least mass arrests of people
who later turned up showing signs of some execution. And so they
constitute a major destabilizing factor in the sense that they are
responsible for a large degree of the lack of protection of Iraqis in
their own country.
Another destabilizing factor, if I may, is the continuation of
the military intervention in the Anbar region where you have military
force applied to civilian areas for the announced purpose of hunting
down terrorists or other opponents. Resulting in massive displacement
and lack and destruction of civilian infrastructure and arrests of
large numbers of mainly males in -- of a certain age group. The role of
the militias, as I have described them, the role of the military
intervention, are two major factors that are contributing to a current
sense of instability in the country as a whole. We have also the—this
instability is characterized by the massive degree of-- two other
factors. One is the kidnapping. Ranging between 122 and 158 days of
persons who range from school kids to very wealthy people being
kidnapped. And the other is the fact that nobody really has any
alternative except to seek to defend himself or herself by their own
means. So that in turn provokes more lawlessness. Because tribes,
clans, religious groups, subgroups, take the law into their own hands.
There is a vacuum at the level of the responsibility of the state to
protect its citizens. That is really the cause of this problem.
AMY GOODMAN: We are talking to --
JOHN PACE: My observation has been certainly there are
sectarian aspects to the conflict that's going on. But in my view, at
least result from my observation, the sectarian aspect is only a result
of the main cause. And main cause is the total breakdown in any kind of
law and order. Forget about rule of law. Law and order around the
AMY GOODMAN: We have to break stations to identify themselves. We will be back with John Pace in a minute.
AMY GOODMAN: On the issue of death squads I wanted to read to you an excerpt from an article that appeared in the New York Times Magazine
last May by Peter Moss, it was entitled "The Way of the Commandos." We
are talking to the man who has just left Iraq as the UN Human Rights
Chief, John Pace. We are speaking to him in Sydney, Australia, in his
first broadcast interview here in the United States.
Peter Moss' piece reads, "The template for Iraq today is not
Vietnam to which it is often been compared but El Salvador. Where, a
right wing government backed by the United States fought a leftist
insurgency in a 12-year war beginning in 1980. The cost was high. More
than 70,000 people were killed, most of them civilians in a country
with a population of just six million. Most of the killing and
torturing was done by the army and the right-wing death squads
affiliated with it.
According to an Amnesty International Report in 2001,
violations committed by the army and its associated paramilitaries
included extrajudicial killings, other unlawful killings,
disappearances and torture while whole villages were targeted by the
armed forces and their inhabitants massacred. As part of president
Reagan's policy of supporting anti-communist forces, hundreds of
millions of dollars in U.S. aid was funneled to the Salvadoran army and
a team of 55 special forces advisors led for years by Jim Steele,
trained frontline battalions accused of significant human rights
Peter Moss' article goes on to say there are far more Americans
in Iraq today, some 140,000 troops in all than there were in Salvador.
But U.S. soldiers and officers are increasingly moving to a
Salvador-style advisory role. In the process, they are backing up local
forces that like the military in El Salvador do not shy away from
violence. It is no coincidence that this new strategy is most visible
in a paramilitary unit that has Steele as its main advisor. Having been
a key participant in the Salvador conflict, Steele knows how to
organize a counter insurgency campaign led by local forces.
He's not the only American in Iraq with such experience. He
was the senior -- the senior U.S. advisor in the ministry of interior
which has operational control over the commandos. Steve Castile, a
former top official in the drug enforcement operation who spent much of
his professional life immersed in the drug wars of Latin America.
Castile worked alongside local forces in Peru, Bolivia, and Columbia
where he was involved in the hunt for Pablo Escobar, the head of the
Medellin cocaine cartel. Your response to this analogy rather than
Vietnam, Salvador, in the 1980's?
JOHN PACE: My knowledge of the situation in Iraq does
certainly point out to a variety of styles of addressing the so-called
insurgency. And the role of the paramilitaries in Iraq is, I think, we
all doubt there is a large component of so-called security personnel,
engaged in large numbers in the country with a variety of
responsibilities and indeed there was a phase last year when a number
of executions that we observed did follow patterns which were quite
similar to what we had observed in earlier years in places like
Salvador. However, I cannot really subscribe 100% to that analysis,
simply because my mandate, my remits and my role did not necessarily a
requirement to make such comparisons.
But the fact is this there is considerable element of
so-called private security in Iraq today which alongside the large
criminal element and the other non-criminal elements, if you like, like
the militias and the armed forces do spin off alarming degree of
violence inside the country. And regrettably hardly any of this
violence is ever investigated or followed up. And so I would say yes,
there are death squads. They do follow a pattern in Iraq of a sort.
Coincidentally, there are also from time to time and within
the private security umbrella people from various other countries who
are contracted as private security to protect among others, I suppose,
government installations in Iraq. And these would include, I don't know
Chilean, Salvadoran, and Peruvians and others -- as they do -- Nepalese
and so on. But I prefer to look at the situation in Iraq and on its
own, on its own merits as it were, rather than compare it to other
situations because the particularities of the situation in Iraq are
quite unique in that respect, especially for the UN, where you have a
process of re-stabilization of the country at the political level
without a corresponding serious effort at re-stabilization at the
security level of the country. If you look at this schizophrenic
situation, you will see there are political negotiations going on to
form a government to establish a policy, to establish the development
strategy and so on. Whereas on the other hand, you see nothing on the
security side except further deterioration, including as a result of
government intervention, further deterioration of security of people in
Iraq. And that, of course, neutralizes completely any serious effort at
re-stabilizing the country. Unless you have a police force that's
acting in the interests of society and the interests of the country at
large and efficiently so, and therefore as a corollary to that, the
withdrawal and the nonexistence of military intervention, then you
cannot have a serious political resolution in the country.
And this is the problem in Iraq today. You have a disparity
between the political dialogue on the one hand and the dialogue of
violence and murder on the other. They are both going in different
directions. I would personally much prefer to -- for the benefit of
clearer analysis focus on the -- on the fact that Iraq itself presents
and refrains from comparing it to behavior patterns and other
situations. Having said so, it is correct and my observations would
confirm that at least at a certain point last year and in 2005, we saw
numerous instances where the behavior of death squads was very similar,
uncannily similar to that we had observed in other countries, including
AMY GOODMAN: And these death squads, again, many of the men being found dead are clearly tortured, cigarette burns, drill bits drilled into
JOHN PACE: The majority are -- but then again, there are
quite a large number that are simply executed with a bullet the head,
for instance, or two. The prevalence torture is quite clearly
established regrettably. Especially as a result of these -- it presents
itself on observation of these groups that are found in various parts
of the country.
AMY GOODMAN: We are talking to John Pace. He's the
former UN Human rights chief in Iraq. He has just come out and is back
home in Sydney, Australia. I wanted to ask you, John Pace, about the
prisons. If you could comment on the U.S. and Iraq-run prisons. The Abu
Ghraib photos that have become so well known. The black sites, the
ghost detainees, the detainees whose names are not known, who are kept
off the records.
JOHN PACE: Well let me say first of all that our
observations reflect that Iraqis who are detained under U.S. custody
have constantly expressed a deep desire not to be transferred to Iraqi
detention, I think it is very important to set that out. They have made
it very clear in spite of their unjust detention in most cases and in
spite of the other hardships they would like us to be transferred to
Now this accounts for a proportion of them, not a majority.
But the reasons why they are so -- so unhappy at the prospect of being
transferred to Iraqi jurisdiction is clear, that's because their prison
system simply is very primitive and conditions are extremely harsh, and
the risk of torture and tree is rife, especially because that also
includes treatment as a threat to the relatives who -- in an effort to
buy them out. That's one consideration.
On the other hand, the problem with the detainees held by the
U.S. especially is due to the fact that as you surely understand, the
U.S. presence in Iraq is -- particularly its role in shoring security
is sanctioned by the security counsel of the United Nations. And as
such -- in response to the wish of the Iraqi transitional authorities,
the United States have accepted to support efforts of the Iraqis in
shoring security, that's a technical position.
But the detainees that are taken and held by the U.S. are not
really detainees in the strict sense of custodial terms, they are
technically internees held for imperative reasons of security and
internment for imperative reasons of security is very carefully -- is
very carefully protected, very carefully circumscribed by international
law. As internee is in the a detainee, is certainly not a prisoner.
None of the conditions relating to internment are actually being
observed in regard to those persons held by United States as suspects
for -- as a result of the various military operations.
There is a serious problem there of the legitimacy under which
they are held. That's -- that doubt is made further -- made more
serious by the fact -- by the realities. In other words, the numbers,
the large numbers, which are being held as internees, the duration, the
long time when they are held, where they are held. A lot of them are
held in detention centers like Abu Ghraib which is a multiple detention
center, you have various wings.
AMY GOODMAN: John Pace, would you say that the United States is violating the Geneva Conventions?
JOHN PACE: In this respect, I would say so, yes.
Certainly not observing the terms of internment, for imperative reasons
of security. That's quite clear. And I do recall that our office at the
appropriate time had shared this view with our colleagues of the U.S.
Mission in Baghdad. It is a matter of concern because of the large
numbers involved and the duration of the detention. You know, the vast
majority of these people are innocent and when they are rounded up, by
the time that they leave, quite a number of them are no longer as
innocent as they were when they entered. Because obviously they are
exposed to hardcore people who have a certain degree of violent
instinct in them.
AMY GOODMAN: What percentage of the people, the prisoners, the thousands of prisoners would you say are innocent when they are brought in?
JOHN PACE: Oh, I would say the vast majority I would say
between 80%, 90%. You know, this rounding up is quite blindly done, of
course, because of the immediate circumstances surrounding the
situation. Whether it is the result of a military onslaught, air
attacks, or whatever other means are used, or whether they are in
reaction to, let's say a car bomb blast or another act of violence
dedicated against people in Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Would you say that the -- since the U.S. invasion that the invasion-occupation has made Iraq a breeding ground for terrorists?
JOHN PACE: Well, it certainly has. There's no question
about it. For various very clear reasons. It is in the my personal
opinion. It is a matter of even history because the degree of violence
has increased exponentially since the invasion. The number of foreign,
if you like, terrorists or violent people, whatever you wish to call
them, attracted to the conflict is large, huge. So you have several
foreigners even in their own prisons, not to mention that they are
still out who have been attracted to Iraq simply for their desire to as
it were, sorry to say, have a go at the United States.
The general stability in the country is due to the way in
which the country has been kind of blown apart in terms of its social
structures and social fiber, therefore making it vulnerable to also
internal and external violent and criminal elements. On the other side,
there has not been a corresponding serious attempt at controlling that
violence because there is no civil police force to speak of. The army
itself is only now being reconstructed. And -- but Iraq is far, very
far from having a -- or, Iraqis are far from having the kind of minimal
protection that one would expect from the state.
AMY GOODMAN: John Pace, would you say that the raids the U.S. military goes on the houses, communities of Iraq, is increasing the violence?
JOHN PACE: Oh, yes. That's, of course, a constant
provocation. According to the numerous estimates we get in our
interviews, this is a recurrent theme. But that is classic of trying to
apply, trying to apply some degree of control by using a military
element as a interim civil police element. Trying to, you know, swat a
fly with, you know, with a bomb, instead of with a swatter. And the
difference in the sensitivities is, of course, huge, and animosity
correspondingly so. And both the boys and ladies in uniform on the
United States' side and the others on the civilian side, are not
prepared to extend much -- many courtesies to each other. The degree of
sensitivity is considerable. And indeed, it's reflected, I'm sure you
know this, because it is common knowledge, that if there is any element
that unites the Iraqis in spite of their several internal differences
is the desire to see the end of the occupation, the end of the military
presence in Iraq.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think the US has to pull out now?
JOHN PACE: Well, you know, the army, there's really very
little place for a military intervention in a situation -- if you want
to have normalization again, that is. There is a remarkable -- a
remarkable absence of serious attention to the need to have civil
police element and a judiciary that can work. These elements do not
exist at the moment. On the contrary, in regards to the police, they
have been, a number of them, large number of them have been associated
with being perpetrators, rather than protectors of human rights
AMY GOODMAN: We have to leave it there. I want to thank you very much, John Pace for joining us, outgoing United Nations human rights chief
in Iraq, speaking to us now from Australia. Thank you so much.
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